Lots of questions on pond design.
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Be patient with me please, I want to ask lots of questions. I have researched the topic but I am getting confused a bit with so many different views.
    I have just finished the filtration of my old pond. I am not posting pictures because U will laugh at me. But it is better than nothing.
    I want to make a better home for my babies.
    So this are questions to help me design the pond. After I design it U will have to advise if I am making mistakes.
    I am counting on your help.
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I have a old pond badly built 1120cmx740cmx120cm deep rectangular concrete. I found this pond here when I bought the plot. I plan to build a new pond inside this one , reinforced and raise it above ground to 160cm. Now this pond is just too big. It will be hard to filter. I thought of subdividing it and putting the filtration inside the pond (partition). I have done some drawings, but it is just an idea. Nothing fixed...
    Want to use half of the pond as koi home and another half as a water garden. No koi in the water garden. Plants grown bare rooted floating. No soil what so ever.
    Simply to reduce on the filtration needed. The two ponds to be interconnected with a water fall, but each to have its own filtration and to be able to isolate them if need me for medication. The pond will be concrete.
    For now my question is:
    Should I divide the pond?
    What are the pros and cons of having this pond so large. Would U advise please?
    Just remember every thing will be DIY and I can not buy here any thing for Koi....
    The filter pits are on the right, and they are 3 per pond.
    Top koi
    bottom water garden.
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    Post edited by Neli at 2011-10-20 01:18:50 am
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Both pond will be roughly 8m x 3,40m x 1,6m deep.
    Each pond will be 43.5K
    What would U do if U were me?
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-10-20 01:29:56 am
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    No sifus here today?
  • ChengAunChengAun October 2011
    Posts: 914
    hey :D
    I see you have an interest in aquaponics :) I used to have a system :P

    anyways, on filtration, I see you intend to have a circular water flow. Well, this is not recommended :) (I'll leave that to the sifu's to explain :P ). The bigger the pond, the better in terms of water volume (and no need to worry about overstocking) but in terms of cost and maintenance it is indeed a burden. Subdividing it is possible, but not recommended to share the same filter. Also, the pond can be shallower , maybe about 1.0m-1.2m.
    Post edited by ChengAun at 2011-10-20 09:36:02 pm
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Thanks!
    I am only interested in aquaponics as a way of planting some flowers to make it look nice, not vegetables...
    What flow would U recommend? Onishi stream flow?? Does it not need lots of pump power and a very long slopping floor pond?
    Each pond will have its own filter, in case I want to turn it into another pond later.. if need be.
    My biggest worry is medication...
    The only connection is via the water fall, which can be switched off, and they become 2 independent ponds. I will need to make a provision for a skimmer in koi pond in case that happens.
    But id I want to medicate I can medicate the Koi pond only.
    Last night I kept on drawing and drawing and this is what I came up with:
    This is what I have come up with up to now:
    Two ponds: one Koi one water garden
    Size (both) 24' x11 X koi pond 5,5' deep, water garden 4' deep.
    Water overflows from KP (koi pond) to WG (water garden), via water fall, with a skimmer basket in it and plastic shavings inside for mechanical filtration.
    2BD x 4" aerated DIY in each pond 2 TPR in each pond.(red arrows) and one GPR(brown arrow)
    One skimmer each:
    KP waterfall 2000GPH, WG skimmer to pump 500GPG
    2 pumps, 6000 GPH each.(or bigger)
    Pumps will be above grownd, pond level for priming. Have not decided on model yet.
    P1 pumps at the end of bio filter pumps 500GPH from skimmer, and the rest from end of filter after bio. Gate valves on Skimmer before pump for regulating flow.
    Discharges: 1000G 2 TPR each in WG and the rest to bakki over KP. Exit of bakki from a 4 inch pipe to act as TPR ????????
    Gate valves to regulate flow on each.
    P2: pumps from end of bio in filter to:
    1GPR 2000 GPH,
    2 TPR 1000G each, and
    Bakki 2000GPH.
    Filters will be similar to Eric (Raceway filter).
    That is what I have planned so far , but I am sure I am making lots of mistakes.
    That is the general design.Plumbing, sumps,waste, next. Still thinking about it.
    I hope U will correct me and advise.
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Design:

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  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Wanted to put a window, and at present the pond is ground level, so I will need to go 60cm up for that. or maybe 50cm.
  • ChengAunChengAun October 2011
    Posts: 914
    On water flow and whether the length is too long, ask Ultimate Sifu, @DAVIDSOON :)
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    I have sent him a PM, but not sure if he will have the time for one more headache...mine will be a big headache.
    I dont want to do stream flow/ raceway, but 2 cell mixed raceway system. Form what I found on the net onishi type of design needs much more pump power to effectively sweep the floor.
    This is what I was reading of late: http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bitstream/2117/730/1/Oca-Masal%C3%B306.pdf
  • DAVIDSOONDAVIDSOON October 2011
    Posts: 262
    Apology Sizter Neli ,

    I have yet to study and go into aquaponic to really learn the balance of aquaponic and a fish pond . Perhaps this video link would help .

    &ad=6312417136&kw=%20aquaponics

    David
    Post edited by DAVIDSOON at 2011-10-25 06:50:29 am
    The Best is Yet to Come .
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Thanks David for thinking of me!.
    I dont plan to do aquaponics like that.
    I want to do a proper formal koi pond, the same type as yours. The only reason I am talking about aquaponics is because I want to reduce the area of filtration on the pond a bit.
    I know that plants planted in soil can cause hydrogen production, and its compounds, which are poisonous for Koi. I would like to subdivide the pond in 2 parts: The bigger part for Koi and the lower part for a water garden. The only way I can have benefit from plants (nitrogen removal and beauty) is if I plant them in the principle of aquaponics. Soil less not even in expanded clay like on the video, but just floating like in the picture bellow.
    Why do we put returns in a pond and try to create circulation?
    -to pass the water through the filters for cleaning
    _to create rotational or laminar flow in order to sweep the sediment towards the BD.
    -mix the dead spots/water within the pond...
    -oxygenate the water ( aerated BD)
    - maybe create current to exercise the Koi.
    If I divide the pond I will have few options:
    Fill t he other half... break it....or use it for something that will not require too many additional pumping...
    So I thought if I divide it, put plants in one part only and koi in the other part. I can connect the two ponds in such a manner that my circulation /filtration be efficient with less pumps used.
    I think as long as I fulfill the above requirements I can get away with it?????
    But maybe there are other things to consider????
    I want to build the 2 ponds: WG and KP, in such a manner that they compliment each other. They can work together as one, and at the same time being able to separate them in case of medication required.
    I thought if I put only one pump (25000L) in the water garden, and let it have its own separate filtration with only a part of the returns being pumped over the bakki, I can have that extra water returning to the WG over the water fall skimmer, and if I close that small portion going to the bakki, they will be totally independent.
    The bakki will have 2 pumps pumping over (bakki needs lots of water)it so the media will not die....
    Then I can perhaps get away with 1 or two pumps only in the KP....?????
    I have been reading like crazy...16 hrs a day, trying to design it and understand it all, but I think 2 heads are better that one...specially when one head is experienced.
    I would try to do it...by my self, and I will post all my ideas here, but I would like U to keep an eye on me and see if I am not making mistakes... I would not like to inconvenience U too much.
    If U have some better ideas, any one , they will be greatly appreciated.
    I would like to design some kind of a floating ring, 20-30 cm diameter and plant inside individually the plants, floating like this:
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    BTW brother David I have been following your Koi and they are heavenly!
    Can someone tell me why conventional rotating cell mixed race way pond is not so good any more?
    I have seen of late people constructing the stream/river/onishi types of ponds????
    What is better????
    Pro's and cons????
    I have been trying to understand this :
    http://elmu.umm.ac.id/file.php/1/jurnal/A/Aquacultural%20Engineering/Vol24.Issue1.Dec2000/1159.pdf
    and I have seen many comparison studies on stream and circular flow.
    The most efficient design for sweeping the debris towards the BD is a circular pond and there for energy efficient and easy to maintain.
    The next best thing is rectangular pond, divided into squares (cells) with a ratio of with to length of max 1.45:1 for each cell.
    I have found research that says that stream/river flow design needs much more turnover rate than the above...in order to keep it efficiently swept..???
    What design is better than this?
    Post edited by Neli at 2011-10-25 10:10:07 pm
  • ChengAunChengAun October 2011
    Posts: 914
    Sis Neli, are you @Yamato ?
    Be updated in the world of koi. Jangankan seperti "Koi di bawah bottom drain"
  • weihanweihan October 2011
    Posts: 318
    Hi Neli, according to your design which wanted the water from fish pond flow into your aquaponic pond, I dint think that it is recommended as the oil from your pond will stuck in your aquaponic. It is better for water from filter to flow into your aquaponic, then into the fish pond.
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Yes Darling I am Yamato, but I managed to log in with Neli too??? I dont know how????
    I forgot my pass word so I just tried and I logged in.... and it shows that I registered in June, so I thought all was OK, until U told me... Then I looked for my old posts and thought U deleted them since I did not post for some time...
    So for short confusion has set in...
    BTW Darling I finished my old pond's filtration a week ago some how...DIY and very primitive but hope is better than nothing. Want to do a proper pond now. I am posting for U what I did just promise me not to laugh.Had not much help.....
    Weihan bro,
    That is a good idea, and it makes sense.... My only problem is that I want to make the Koi pond 80cm higher and it will be hard since the WG will be only 120cm deep.
    Dont U think the plants will enjoy the nutrient rich water and use some of the nutrients in it?
    I will need all the pump discharge in the WG to create some circulation for self cleaning and it will have a separate filter...
    Do U see any way around it?.

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    Post edited by Neli at 2011-10-26 06:52:29 am
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Some more for entertainment....
    I cut the pipe to use as media.... nothing here to buy.....
    The sucks are full of plastic shavings...
    Made holes in the gray pipe and put it on the bottom connected to the new pump in a circle with 2 inlets to the pump and is cleaning the bottom very well.
    My garden while I was doing my filtration....
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  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa October 2011
    Posts: 260
    Hi Neli,
    Am not into aquaponic but I do incorporate some money plant into the pond system over the past 1-2 years. Due to the risk of plants bringing in parasite problems, I have most of the the plants position above the pergola roof with its roots dangling into the pond water as shown in the following pics. The koi love to nibble and clean the roots. Hopefully the plants will helps to get rid of some of the nitrate in the water as well.

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    Post edited by ThiamHwa at 2011-10-26 07:32:42 am
  • NeliNeli October 2011
    Posts: 1,205
    Waw! Darling. It looks so romantic!
    I have one growing 50 cm away from the pond next to the TPR and the big palm. I am going to put one brunch around the edge above the water. What a good idea.
    BTW your Koi look very good! Soooooo big! Mine are still midgets!
    And some fantastic Koi there!
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa October 2011
    Posts: 260
    Yup! Hopefully, the koi will find it romantic too. There is this particular Okawa Shiro koi constantly nudging and obviously feeling very comfortable among the roots of the plant. Will try to capture it on pic. for sharing soon. Thank you.
    Post edited by ThiamHwa at 2011-10-26 08:14:15 am

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